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109589-is-wildstar-a-niche-game-for-the-hardcore-i-argue-no
Content ---- this is very true. I believe this is what people overlook in the debate of hardcore vs casual. | |} ---- Yeah, pretty much this. Once you're not intent on getting to Datascape to run alongside Enigma with your lesser playtime, the game's exceptionally fun. It doesn't have to be a job, in fact it's more fun when it's not. Not that the RNG shouldn't be fixed and things can't be improved, but this is exactly why I'm having such a great time in the game. | |} ---- That's your opinion. Agree 100% OP. | |} ---- ---- Seraph meet the MMO Genre, MMO Genre, meet Seraph. | |} ---- the only serious disconnect is between what ADD and "entertain me" players want and the genre. seriously, show me any modern mmo where you dont have to do the same thing every...single...day. yes, people want different, and people these days couldnt find happiness or entertainment in anything they need to do more than once. being "hardcore" doesnt mean that you get to do something new every day. sometimes, being "hardcore" means you do tedious crap. thats life and reality, even in the mmo genre. the real point of life, even in mmo's, is finding fun where there sometimes isnt. its a life lesson, thats a free tip, I wont charge you for it. | |} ---- ---- I agree that it is a niche game, because it is a new type of "themepark" MMO. I don't agree that it is a game specifically made for the niche of "hardcore" players. The question is whether Carbine and the community can bring the game to a level of sustainability where there is a healthy (not necessarily huge) population and group content is readily playable. Because most of the fun content is group content. | |} ---- its all fun content I think. but then, I dont demand they entertain me, I can do that on my own | |} ---- The game is currently burning from the top(raiders) and the bottom(casuals/semi). The fact that something as basic as Normal Mode Raids don't exist here is also very telling. They had a Niche audience in mind. The problem is that audience is small. This is not directed at you but people wanna blame WoW and casuals for the state of the game but they don't point fingers at the "hardcore" people who did more damage to the game by anyone by leaving. Carbine was making this game for them. Casuals weren't factored into the equation imo. Yet they seem the most loyal to the product: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wnec6SmjHP0 | |} ---- typically middle of the road people stay longer than raiders or pvpers because they are not after instant gratification. usually they are in their for the long haul. the consistent problem in mmo gaming is that they do not complain as loud or ragequit, so the game companies ALWAYS over look them in an effort to keep the transient money. which always fails. be nice to one day, find a game that caters to the people that stay, not the casuals, not the pvpers and not the raiders but the people that stick around for years, because those are the people that make sure their salaries are always paid | |} ---- A closed mouth does not get fed. What you want is the Nichiest of the Niche haha. You want something like Vanguard before it died. People played it to the very end because they enjoyed it that much. | |} ---- and until the end... they paid into it its not so much the nichiest, its more the people that enjoy playing it. obviously, feeding the mouths that are only there briefly and scream the loudest does not work. maintain a player base that stays, cultivate it, and it will grow. | |} ---- I don't know. We all burn out sometimes but here is the rub. Sometimes the grind is fun and sometimes it's not. Daily raids and releveling 1-20 in ddo over and over? Fun. Farming from easy mobs for easy drops to bashing head in content where you better bring best of the best and die a lot? Fun. Pso2 mob grinding ad nausea, often fun. They keep a cycle of content that most of the time you are getting burnt out just as the next thing is coming. Tired of those maps, well they add new levels and new weapons for some older content to give you incentive to run that instead. Sega are some sick controlling overlords, man. WildStar dailies? Not fun. Pugging when people just bail out all the time? Not fun. Would it be more fun if one found friends and ran with them? I bet the answer is yes, but then you could do anything with friends and it'd be fun. I personally enjoy games that give me hard content whether I'm with friends, solo, or wanting to meet randoms. Right now WildStar after my first level 50 is only fun in one of those categories. Contrast that with ddo and Tera which gave me all three and when they stopped... I left. I don't want WildStar to entertain me really but an mmo has to give me the solo and pug amazing experience to inspire me to get some friends. Even gw2 did that with wvwvw. Some people like certain things that WildStar does like crafting and housing enough to stay entertained. I don't. The costuming systems are ones that can keep me in but we are in some ways lacking despite the great variety. I can say that outside wanting raid looks (which on my main I do not want ick), I have acquired all the looks I really wanted. Even got the hoverboard I wanted. I'm out of pull in that direction and out of bank space. WildStar does not have enough to pull me in right now. For me. I make no comments about anyone else. It's a disconnect between me and the game, nobody else. I don't have add nor expect games to entertain me. But I also can't make up activities that aren't there. | |} ---- ---- I would agree if people weren't heading back to a very familiar Theme Park.. | |} ---- ---- Hardcore = Major time investment (aka tedius) + Difficulty FFXI was hardcore because it was challenging and it took ages to get even modest rewards EQ was hardcore because it was challenging and it took ages to get even modest rewards Ultima Online ^^^^ ~Insert hardcore mmo here~ ^^^^ Otherwise I agree :) | |} ---- ---- All due respect; no one actually uses that as their working definition of 'hardcore'. In the parody episode of WoW on south park; they didn't become Hardcore players by playing challenging content for a limited amount of time.... http://southpark.cc.com/full-episodes/s10e08-make-love-not-warcraft Be honest, when the kids were spending 24/7 in the basement; that is the general ideal of 'hardcore' MMO players. We all heuristically know that 'Hardcore' are those players who sit in the basement playing for 15 hours a day.... Hardcore is very much defined by the time investment as well as challenge / difficulty (and time investment is frankly often intrinsic in said challenge). Best, Naz | |} ---- ---- Or the players who enjoy the game will keep playing. It's OK that you don't enjoy the game; but It's not OK to assume because you don't ERGO no one else does. While no one likes bugs and exploiters, a lot of us genuinely enjoy the content. Your mileage may vary; but just because we enjoy the game doesn't mean we wear 'blinders'. Pick any game you enjoy and I can point out the BS components and terrible aspects of it... that doesn't mean you aren't perfectly entitled to enjoy it; it just means we all dance to the beat of our own drum.. | |} ---- ---- I don't think this is the right genre for you. | |} ---- I point out the flaws in almost EVERY game I play. None of them are perfect. I'll grant it's about finding one that you enjoy and sticking with it. But objectively speaking, there is VERY little that Wildstar is doing that's new and/or different from other MMOs. And in many regards it actually is doing many things worse than other MMOs. The fact that people LIKE the style of the game doesn't change that. The fact that I'm still enjoying playing DDO, GW2, and occasionally EVE online, as well as looking forward to EQ Next and Camelot Unchained says differently. It's not that the genre isn't for me. It's that I'm not interested in the games that carbon copy outdated designs, and that don't innovate, don't progress, and don't take the genre forward. That is a distinct difference. I'm glad people are enjoying Wildstar. But the fact that people disagree with my opinion doesn't mean that I don't like MMOs. | |} ---- ---- Let's point out that people shouldn't do the opposite, either. If you like the game, that doesn't mean it's objectively good and everyone who doesn't see it that way is a silly little "entitled" crying baby. Which is something that gets tossed a lot in every gaming community, to be honest, but that doesn't make it excusable. One of the games I enjoyed the most this year has been Dark Souls 2. If you ask me my opinion on it I'm going to tear it apart horribly, because it does a lot of things wrong. From gameplay to story to scenery design. But I still basically enjoy it. How is that possible? For me to like it but also criticize it so heavily? That's easy: because I like the game, I want it to improve. To be better. that's why I complain and, in essence, that's the reason everyone complains about games not meeting their expectations. The people who leave without comment are the ones who don't care about the game. They might like it, sure, but they don't like it enough to take the time (and the attacks of the white knights) to point it out. | |} ---- Well that's being a trooper even though many know it will be rough road to stay sub, but they do believe Wild Star's potential. I just wish they knew how to utilize it quicker because it's there in the constructive feedback arguments. I know right This makes me think that it's going to be a lot of revamping in future patches. If it was to happen of course.. | |} ---- This is an excellent point to bring up. I wonder, though, if it gets misinterpreted because of the newest gaming generation is so media-social that these kind of responses are seen as typical negative banter that much of their ilk takes part in on a daily basis. They're overall dialogue is basically negative. From profanity to jokes to their asinine responses to legitimate questions, the status-quo is to be a punk. When a game caters to punks, good luck. | |} ---- Well with hate laced responses towards the game, it's pretty clear how others can come to the conclusion that you don't like MMOs. I stand corrected though, you do like them. You're just emo. | |} ---- Ah...personal attacks. I'm sorry you don't share my opinion, but there's no call for that. How about instead you tell me what you feel Wildstar is doing right. Or how it's taking the genre forward. Or even just the things you like about the game? | |} ---- No that's not a personal attack. Just stating what I see. And no, I'm not answering your questions, because I'm not going to debate. It's a game, not a life choice that I must crusade against to sate my hunger. | |} ---- - Combat - Setting - Humor - Housing - Mount customization - Dungeons (I cannot comment on raids yet) - Crafting - Dev communication and actually listening to players Granted, there isn't more than this from my perspective, but for me it's plenty enough to stick with it until the end. | |} ---- Hardcore has no definition. It means a lot of things to a lot of players, largely depending on the MMOs they've played. Raiding is hardcore to a subsection of MMO players, but that's not the original definition, or even very close to it at all. For oldschool MMOers, Hardcore could easily mean permanently losing gear, experience and even levels when you die. I'm not going to critique the rest of your post, I just wanted to point out that this assumption that Hardcore = anything in particular is one of the biggest problems pervading discussions about Wildstar's current state and its future. | |} ---- I think there's definitely a sliding scale of Hardcore, instead of just a set number of things you have to do to be considered as such. I don't think that there's any denying that the likes of Blood Legion or Method are in fact, hardcore. But that isn't necessarily the only kind of 'hardcore'. The definition of the word also changes as the genre grows and ages. Some of the mechanics in EQ and such would very much be considered 'hardcore' by some today, while people who played during that time would not, it was just the way things were done then. ------ I think some of the things that Seraph has said is spot on. WildStar does do some things very right(combat), but then it fails spectacularly in the leveling process. All MMO's share the same types of quests(kill/collect/guard/etc), but there are definitely ways to make them fun, or to mask the objective of said quests in creative ways. The leveling process certainly does feel like any other MMO with a different paint job most of the time. But then you have the Drusera quests. Those were some fine quests, lots of fun, I thought (and definitely could have come along sooner, IMHO). | |} ---- This one? | |} ---- They are making a new one, I think that concludes this thread. | |} ---- God please no | |} ---- T-Rex > Anime | |} ---- When is pugging fun? So we are to play sandboxes? What can you do in a sandbox that you cannot do in a themepark? They just seem less to me, not more. Sandbox is like deleting raids from WS and telling people now you can do what you want. | |} ---- Optimus prime rode on the back of a T-rex with a sword last movie. Not sure if that counts..... | |} ---- ---- ---- This confuses me. You don't want the game to go F2P but one of your way's to fix the game, is to go F2P? | |} ---- There is a difference between F2P Game and "Free to play weeks". The reason i want them to give out free to play week because for Sub game it is not easy to attract most of the quitter and 1week free sub can do wonders. But it is not meaning to let the game goes entire F2P no sub. Subscription model is still preferred as it is the best mean to get balanced game without having to lure people to pay in F2P. Because by the time they can fixed all those lists, it might take weeks/ or months. People would just gave up on this game already. Now some servers are already deserted town. Hence that's why Free to play weeks might be neccesary. But all in all they should have give free transfer now to lessen the effect of ghost town. | |} ---- In fact outside gw2 and WildStar, I've had tremendous fun pugging and meeting people. Pre-50 pugs in WildStar was often fun too. Sure, a quitter here and there, but next people were awesome and we talked and eventually beat the content and it felt great. Ddo pugs were often fun, sometimes frustrating. Lol. Pugs introduced me to my first ever raid, I pugged raids well before my raiding guild and met my raid leader in a pug. Ridiculous times, fun times, rage times, all around a blast. Made many friends that way. Learnt how to be a better healer that way. Tera I had a guild that I met pugging but I still continued to pug because it was fun. Often got new players and was fun giving them pointers. Sometimes got arseholes but being healer meant I could tell them to behave or end up dead. I learnt with friends and pugged to teach or just have fun. I pug 12mans in pso2 cause it's a Japanese game. Playing with 12 friends is a hassle even when we have that many lol. Are they sometimes terribad and we fail the new maps on release? Hell yes. Do we learn and improve, heck yes. And they're often so nice, rez-ing strangers and buffing... Jp players are super nice to pug with. In big maps we all let the whole map know when a boss spawned... I've never seen a game have tools to make pug communication so friendly. We can even see other people on map starting this year, hot damn. So... Pugging can be tremendous fun and a place to actually meet and interact with the community. Even when part of raiding guild, even when part of a guild in an alliance of 8 guilds, I still went to pug because pugs are fun and challenging in a way that playing with the most skilled tank on the server just isn't. Our tanks were so good, I barely had to focus on healing and was often pumping mana on dps in raids in ddo. Our Tera tank was so insultingly good that I was bored running my priest and we started bringing newbie tanks for fun (and he swapped to archer dps alt). Contrast that with a pug tank that took all my attention, skill and resource management to get through a boss encounter. That's fun. | |} ---- What server were you on in Tera? | |} ---- Tempest Reach | |} ---- ---- Yes, how sexy was that pvp+PvE combo for top armor, blechs. MT pugs were often douches but I forgave if they played well. Thankfully they usually did. Nobody plugged mchm tho, lol. That would have taken some balls. BGs were hilarious in that game. | |} ---- I loved MCHM, just me and 4 friends. And VM was sexy for the Mystic! Cost a fortune to make all 4, Masterwork and +12 with the perfect stats though | |} ---- ---- He means for Carbine to give out complimentary gametime. | |} ---- ---- Yeah perhaps after drop 3 they can do the 'try Wildstar again heathen!' like other mmo's do to get people who quit to test out new stuff and see if they would sub again. | |} ---- This is the problem right here. The game is easy and can be completed by yourself up to 50. After that, good luck. The interrupt system isn't fully explained in game and the skill required to do veteran dungeons can be found NOWHERE in the game. Seriously. You can get to 50 and think wow this is great. Then you try a veteran dungeon and will get absolutely stomped. There is no fun in that. There has to be a balance. People want to play end game and should be able to pug it somewhat. It's almost as if Carbine has said "You cannot play end game without a guild." And again, the gap between vet dungeons and adventures is so laughable. Adventures is equivalent to solo questing. Veteran dungeons is equivalent to, well, nothing in game. There is a way to make a boss fight difficult without requiring you to dodge 50 telegraphs in one fight. I think FF 14 has great end game boss fights. They were tough, but over time you could overcome it. Add to the fact they granted you a small buff if you continued dying which always helped out. | |} ---- ----